tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post5577074713025263422..comments2023-09-29T06:58:20.125-07:00Comments on Badtux the Snarky Penguin: Thought Experiment Part 2BadTuxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-44204114530463241382011-08-30T18:41:03.445-07:002011-08-30T18:41:03.445-07:00Popular debate, eh? I don't care enough to tak...Popular debate, eh? I don't care enough to take sides. My main milk concern is with stealing enough of the 120-ml containers of milk that the hospitals sends to the patients.<br /><br />They come in small plastic cups, sealed with a foil top. Loads get wasted, because if they go back with the food trays, dietary just has to toss them. There's no telling how long they've sat out at unknown temperatures. Terrible waste of plastic, as well as of nutritional value.<br /><br />So I scavenge the unopened ones before the kitchen worker takes the tray trolley away. Pop 'em in the unit fridge so there's always extras for the patients, and I usually smuggle home two or three per shift. They're the perfect size for steaming in the mornings with my cappucino. But as an example of how there is controversy over many milky topics, Mrs. Bukko does not like me snaffling this free food because she doesn't know if it comes from cows dosed with bovine growth hormone. She prefers organic milk, which you can get from one producer here that still uses the old-fashioned, returnable glass bottles.<br /><br />Raw milk has its fans in Australia. It's illegal to sell it as food there, <a href="http://www.paleoz.com/australia/raw-milk-in-australia/" rel="nofollow">so at farmers' markets the dodge is to claim it's for "milk baths" and as a complexion aid.</a> It must have aficionados, because there's a raw milk stand at every Aussie open-air market.Bukko Boomerangerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02424677168216647964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-89626609110810189312011-08-30T16:58:16.575-07:002011-08-30T16:58:16.575-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.purplepenquinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17985523216476971244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-77017709076207348612011-08-30T13:46:53.736-07:002011-08-30T13:46:53.736-07:00Sorry, but you said three "facts" that w...Sorry, but you said three "facts" that weren't -- that it's illegal to drink raw milk (it isn't), that there is no scientific evidence that tobacco kills people (there is), and that there is no scientific evidence that raw milk kills people (there is). To clarify, I've clarified my posting rules to make it clear that you're entitled to create your own arguments, but you are NOT entitled to create your own facts out of thin air. Not on this blog, anyhow.<br /><br />- Badtux the New Rules PenguinBadTuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-39863207233455681342011-08-30T12:23:58.163-07:002011-08-30T12:23:58.163-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.purplepenquinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17985523216476971244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-86237103906762480702011-08-30T12:09:06.937-07:002011-08-30T12:09:06.937-07:00It's in my ground rules. Fact-free talking poi...It's in my ground rules. Fact-free talking points -- insisting that the sky is purple even though every piece of evidence says it's blue (on a clear day anyhow) -- aren't allowed. If you're going to say that dozens of scientific studies are wrong, you're going to have to present more evidence than simply exhorting "the facts are wrong because I say they're wrong because they violate my talking points!" Try some other site if you want validation of your talking points :).<br /><br />- Badtux the "Read the rules" PenguinBadTuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-28748574008774885832011-08-30T12:04:42.839-07:002011-08-30T12:04:42.839-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.purplepenquinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17985523216476971244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-47486094419527540002011-08-30T11:54:09.594-07:002011-08-30T11:54:09.594-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.purplepenquinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17985523216476971244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-16639425779109618992011-08-30T11:46:26.929-07:002011-08-30T11:46:26.929-07:001) I wasn't aware that parents typically gave ...1) I wasn't aware that parents typically gave their children cigarettes<br /><br />2) I wasn't aware that there was any substitute for cigarettes that was safer than cigarettes while providing the same value.<br /><br />3) The CDC has conducted epidemiological studies showing deaths from both raw milk and cigarettes. The fact that you're not familiar with the scientific literature is your problem, not mine, and if you continue reciting talking points rather than admit to scientific facts, I *will* use the ban-hammer. I have little patience with people who insist upon living in some bizarro world of their own creation rather than in the reality the rest of us live in.<br /><br />4) You appear to be saying that in Libertopia, I can sell any poison I want to anybody I want, as long as I properly label it. Because, y'know, everybody reads the tiny print that says "diethylene glycol" on it when they buy a tube of toothpaste :). <br /><br />Libertopia as you describe it sounds like it'd be a really awful place to live, what with all the dead bodies lying around from drinking cyanide-laced koolaid and such (hey, it was *labeled* that it had cyanide in it, you didn't *have* to drink it! Just sayin ;).<br /><br />- Badtux the Snarky PenguinBadTuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-18359988529676053122011-08-30T11:35:50.184-07:002011-08-30T11:35:50.184-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.purplepenquinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17985523216476971244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-33027684779793673672011-08-30T11:30:28.188-07:002011-08-30T11:30:28.188-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.purplepenquinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17985523216476971244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-89680693319719730642011-08-30T11:13:47.471-07:002011-08-30T11:13:47.471-07:00I answered the question about cigarettes. Please r...I answered the question about cigarettes. Please re-submit w/o the duplicate stuff.BadTuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-28935213489166535192011-08-30T11:11:20.655-07:002011-08-30T11:11:20.655-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.purplepenquinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17985523216476971244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-17718208505627883832011-08-30T11:10:11.806-07:002011-08-30T11:10:11.806-07:00a) we've banned selling cigarettes to children...a) we've banned selling cigarettes to children, b) we've put warnings on cigarettes so that people who buy cigarettes know they're buying coffin nails. In my opinion, that's all we need to do. There are no little coffins in the family cemetery caused by cigarettes.<br /><br />And there are no (zero) CDC studies showing deaths caused by marijuana, for that matter. Just sayin'. So you whining that marijuana is JUST LIKE raw milk is nonsense. The CDC can show you dead bodies of people killed by raw milk. They can't do the same with marijuana. <br /><br />Regarding my question about whether, in Libertopia, should I be allowed to sell arsenic-laced toothpaste as a beauty aid? I think you answered "Yes", but I'm not sure because you sorta danced around the question a bit. What about <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/02/us/02toothpaste.html" rel="nofollow">glycol-laced toothpaste</a>? Same thing? When does a poison-laced substance that causes death get banned in Libertopia? <br /><br />Just curious. 'Cause seems to me that knowingly selling dangerous substances that have equally good substitutes is a) morally wrong, and b) should be illegal. But it seems to me that you're saying different -- that I should be allowed to sell poison-laced toothpaste all I want, as long as the people buying it are adults. <br /><br />Just curious: How is Libertopia supposed to last, if half its population is dead 'cause they're selling poison-laced food and cosmetics to each other? Just wonderin' :). <br /><br />- Badtux the Puzzled PenguinBadTuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-69538940398969105712011-08-30T10:55:32.550-07:002011-08-30T10:55:32.550-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.purplepenquinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17985523216476971244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-8339998764968053742011-08-30T10:39:48.737-07:002011-08-30T10:39:48.737-07:00BTW, Purple, you never answered my question about ...BTW, Purple, you never answered my question about arsenic-laced toothpaste. Should I be allowed to sell arsenic-laced toothpaste in Libertopia with the health claim "for rosier cheeks!"? Curious penguins are... curious! <br /><br />- Badtux the Curious PenguinBadTuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-39138752937064810152011-08-30T10:36:03.319-07:002011-08-30T10:36:03.319-07:00Go up a level to the main raw milk site at cdc.gov...Go up a level to the main raw milk site at cdc.gov, and you'll see the list of how many people have been *reported* dying due to drinking raw milk over the past ten years -- of which the majority were children. They are careful to state that these are only the cases reported to the CDC. Not all cases are reported to the CDC, as I'm sure you know.<br /><br />Given that pasteurization occurs at a lower temperature than boiling, and given that I wouldn't drink raw milk without boiling it for the same reason I wouldn't drink creek water out of a creek without boiling it (I've had food poisoning, it is *not* fun, projectile diarrhea anybody?), I'm not quite sure what your point is on the fact that a few enzymes are deactivated by higher temperatures. More enzymes would get deactivated by boiling than by pasteurization. <br /><br />But in any event: The point is that pasteurization has saved thousands of lives. I can take you to the family graveyard and show you the little graves that outnumber the big ones in the old part of the cemetery, if you like. Granted, not all of them died from drinking raw milk, there were so many diseases back then that killed children that immunization and better sanitation now prevents, but still. I suppose you oppose mandatory immunization programs for children too? Are all those dead children just "collateral damage" in Libertopia?<br /><br />- Badtux the "I see dead children" PenguinBadTuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-28771520567959485632011-08-30T10:35:21.588-07:002011-08-30T10:35:21.588-07:00How many people do you have to protect before you ...How many people do you have to protect before you move from "nanny state" to "legitimate function of government"? Or is protection of people never a legitimate function of government?Jerry Critterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870618647449723147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-61181924420363531412011-08-30T10:22:46.891-07:002011-08-30T10:22:46.891-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.purplepenquinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17985523216476971244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-30196530816291935442011-08-30T08:31:08.973-07:002011-08-30T08:31:08.973-07:00The problem with children is a very real one. On t...The problem with children is a very real one. On the one hand, there really is no reason to make things like raw milk illegal. I know that I would not like paying to house prisoners on a milk rap. But I do acknowledge that society has an obligation to protect children even from well meaning parents. So things like vaccine requirements and raw milk bans make sense. <br /><br />Here in Michigan, I think we have a nice way to get around the raw milk bans anyways. You can't buy raw milk but you can buy a share of a cow or goat and then hire someone to take care of the animal and milk it. I once bought a 1/4 of a goat because I wanted to make some cheese that required raw goat milk. And let me tell you, that milk was way better than any milk you could buy at the store because the hippy farmers treated the goats well and fed them sunshine and happiness. :) You can home pasteurize the milk before giving to kids and it still tasted much better mostly because it was so fresh. <br /><br />There has to be some kind of balance. Adults really should have the right to consume things like raw milk if that is where their philosophy takes them. They also should be allowed to treat their ailments using non-traditional medicine if they want to. <br /><br />But do adults have the right to raise their children the way they want to? Should they have the right to feed their children raw milk? Should they have the right to raise their children to believe in some supernatural "god" who hates people enough to send hurricanes and earthquakes? Should parents be allowed to spank children? Yell at them? Where to draw the line between society's genuine interest and responsibility to protect children and adult's rights to choose how to live their own lives and how to parent their children is a very tough call. Good luck drawing that line.NoNamehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14525122106635914532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-51732209411200437632011-08-30T07:48:00.523-07:002011-08-30T07:48:00.523-07:00Err, no, Purple, read again. It is for *SELLING* t...Err, no, Purple, read again. It is for *SELLING* the wrong kind of food -- the kind of food that sickens and kills people. You can drink as much raw milk as you want to drink. You just have to milk your own cow to get it. Or go across the border into a state that does allow its sale, if you live in a state that outlaws its sale.<br /><br />You're saying we should return to having graveyards full of tiny little graves, like was true back before pasteurization of milk was common? So are you saying that I should be allowed to sell toothpaste laced with arsenic, with a picture of a rosy-faced girl on it? (That's one of the side effects of mild arsenic poisoning, in case you wonder). I'm not getting your point.<br /><br />Regarding marijuana, I just went to the CDC site and did a search. Other than a "Surgeon General's Warning" (and note that the Surgeon General is a politician, not a scientist), all I see there are use prevalence studies, no epidemiological studies showing it's killed people like the epidemiological study on raw milk. So again I'm baffled. You're not pulling shit out of your ass again, are you? Yes, I know a cloaca is called an "all-purpose orifice", but it's *monkeys* that are supposed to do that, not *penguins*. Just sayin ' :). <br /><br />- Badtux the Rude PenguinBadTuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-76572546889571920312011-08-30T07:18:23.048-07:002011-08-30T07:18:23.048-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.purplepenquinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17985523216476971244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-63767132121851415682011-08-29T21:55:18.824-07:002011-08-29T21:55:18.824-07:00Jerry, it's all about tradeoffs. The automobil...Jerry, it's all about tradeoffs. The automobile is dangerous, but there's no real substitute -- unlike what some rabid liberals insist, mass transit simply cannot do what automobiles can do, which is to go where you want, when you want, in a timely manner. The majority of people in America have decided that the risk of driving a car is acceptable, and would tar and feather any politician who tried to ban cars, though they do insist that cars be as safe as technically feasible. That's just the facts of life in a democracy.<br /><br />I do object to seat belt laws -- I wear seat belts even offroad where it's not required (but where the risk of rollover in my Jeep is much higher), so I think it's a good idea to wear seatbelts, but other than for children I don't think there should be a law requiring morons to wear seat belts. We need fewer morons :). But I seem to have gotten overruled. Democracy. Eh. It sucks. Too bad every other form of government ever tried sucks even worse :).<br /><br />-Badtux the Practical PenguinBadTuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-3014511542423862492011-08-29T21:38:41.475-07:002011-08-29T21:38:41.475-07:00If the death toll was an important factor, there a...If the death toll was an important factor, there are a lot of things that would be eliminated. For example, how many people are killed on our highways every year?Jerry Critterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01870618647449723147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-37371633050272315752011-08-29T21:08:31.753-07:002011-08-29T21:08:31.753-07:00PS: Here is the list of everybody who has ever die...PS: Here is the list of everybody who has ever died from OD'ing on marijuana:<br /><br />...<br /><br /><br />That is all.<br /><br />Oh wait, an empty list? You don't say! No graveyard full of little victims of marijuana? Oh dear!<br /><br />- Badtux the Snarky PenguinBadTuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9612609.post-8028136106686408822011-08-29T21:07:21.969-07:002011-08-29T21:07:21.969-07:00The difference is that marijuana isn't harmful...The difference is that marijuana isn't harmful and there are no legal substitutes for marijuana, while raw milk is harmful and there is a legal substitute (pasteurized milk) that has the same nutritional value and effect. So yeah, you're right, the two are JUST THE SAME, just like beheading children and beheading Barbie dolls is JUST THE SAME. Err, yeah right.<br /><br />- Badtux the Snarky PenguinBadTuxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01345749557330760251noreply@blogger.com